Oral History — Carl Schnoor Part 1
Interview with Carl Schnoor for the Historic Preservation Committee of Mountain Lakes, New Jersey, May 6, 1995. Mr. Schnoor had two interviews, one by an unnamed interviewer, and the other by John Hokenson. Here’s the first one. The unknown interviewer is indicated below as simply “I“.
I: | This is an oral history being conducted by Mountain Lakes Historic Preservation Committee. This morning we are very happy to have Mr. Carl Schnoor, who was a former mayor and a former president of the school board who is here this morning for this interview. I would like to start by asking to tell me where you were born, and where and when you were born, and when you came to Mountain Lakes. |
CS: | Well, I was born in Queens County of New York City, and that was 1913 into-oh, boy, I don’t believe the numbers. [chuckles] At any rate, I moved-I was married in 1938 and we moved to Mountain Lakes in 19-January, 1951, and we moved to Morris Avenue-337 Morris Avenue down near Rockaway Terrace. Within a year we looked into buying this lot on Lake Drive, and we did buy it and built the house there at 351 [unclear]. And we moved in Lake Drive 1952 and we left Mountain Lakes for Florida in 1977. |
I: | Did you return to Mountain Lakes after 1977 or is that- |
CS: | Well, we came back on visits but never moved back. You know, we’ve maintained continuous residence in Florida-Sarasota, Florida. |
I: | Okay. Are you married? |
CS: | My wife died March, 1994. [several words unclear] |
I: | Did you have children? |
CS: | I have a son, Donald, who owns the Boonton Pharmacy and a daughter, Betty Jane Bryant, and she lives in Monroe, North Carolina. She has two children, a boy and a girl. One has graduated from Chapel Hill, the University of North Carolina last year, and the daughter is a sophomore at the University of North Carolina, Wilmington. My son, Donald’s children, three girls-one’s going to-I guess she’s in the third or fourth year-fourth year at the American School of Design in New York. That’s Allison. Elaine, the middle daughter, is finishing her sophomore year at the University of North Arizona. And the youngest one, Carly, was just accepted. She’s finishing high school in three years. She was just accepted at the University of Delaware, among others, but she’s selected the University of Delaware and she’ll be in her freshman year next fall. |
I: | So she’s graduating this year and then- |
CS: | That’s right, going up in June. |
I: | Okay, now, is she going to Mountain Lakes High School or is she going- |
CS: | No, Boonton High School. |
I: | Boonton High School, okay. That’s right. She’s on the transition. |
CS: | Ya. Well, that’s right, ya. When Mountain Lakes agreed to accept students from Boonton Township, why, the girls had started already- |
I: | Right. |
CS: | -and weren’t about to change. I would have liked to have seen them change. |
I: | Can you tell me something about your parents? When you moved here in 1950- |
CS: | ‘1. |
I: | -‘1. And then just tell me about your-you know, your parents and what they did here in Mountain Lakes. |
CS: | Well, they lived on Long Island. |
I: | Oh. |
CS: | So we just had them out here. |
I: | Oh, I see. They didn’t actually-when you moved here you didn’t move with your parents. |
CS: | Oh, no, no, no. |
I: | Okay, I see. |
CS: | No. No, not until-we had been married, as I said before, in 1938 and we moved to-in 1949 we came out here and we made up our minds right then and there that this is where we were going to go. In fact, we bought a lot on Lake Drive-at the corner of Lake Drive and Lake Drive, and there was so much legal problems that we dropped out of that. |
I: | I see. |
CS: | There was a deed restriction. There was a town-it was a bona fide town lot but it was a deed restriction that only three houses could be bought on this-could be built on this-oh, I don’t know, it’s probably about a two-acre area. |
I: | I see. |
CS: | And ours would have been the fourth. That would have meant a court battle where some of the neighbors objected right from the start. We weren’t going to start fighting with neighbors right off the bat, so we backed out of that and we built our house on Morris Avenue near Rockaway Terrace-37 Morris Avenue. It’s a Cape Cod house over there. And then when this lot came up it was- |
I: | You couldn’t pass that up. |
CS: | Ya, we went for it right away. |
I: | What attracted you to Mountain Lakes? |
CS: | Well, I had a friend here, Bill Kirkland, who lived down in Low Plain and he and I worked together with Bell Labs, and he invited us out for a day. And we came out here and saw it and loved it right off the bat. When we got home we put our house on the market, as fast as that. [chuckles] And then we-let’s see, what did we run in-we ran into a problem. The Korean War started somewhere in there. And that-I don’t know, that delayed-building took quite awhile. It took almost a year to build that house on Morris Avenue, problem getting materials. Prices were skyrocketing so-not like they are now. [chuckles] Pretty cheap when you look back. |
I: | Better than now, right. |
CS: | Ya. It was a nice house; we liked it over there but when we had the opportunity to get on the lake, why, we jumped at that. |
I: | So you were attracted by-just by the characteristics of the town. |
CS: | Just the all-appearance of the town, the-you know, the trees, the houses, the school system, everything about it. |
I: | There was what I guess was the Hapgood concept, which is you offer a change from the city, something that’s they call- |
CS: | This is a Hapgood house. |
I: | That’s right. |
CS: | All the big ones. And when we moved here I guess they were very attractive to large families-Mahoneys, among others-they had eight kids. He never complained about taxes. He was ahead of the game. |
I: | [chuckles] Right. |
CS: | But I understand that’s gradually gone down. Families aren’t as large. |
I: | Well, it’s interesting. We’ve got-that’s been the case but now the lower grades in Wildwood School are crowded with-in fact, they’re taking a look at maybe having to expand Wildwood School as a possibility. |
CS: | Really? |
I: | Because they’re-they’ve gone from two or three kids in a family as being a large family-now, four or five being more normal. So we’re going back to- |
CS: | It’s changing [unclear]. |
I: | So you-the last house you were in then was-in Mountain Lakes here was the one on- |
CS: | On 60 Drive-61 Lake Drive. |
I: | Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And so did you do a lot of activities using the lake then, I guess, or- |
CS: | Oh, sure-all year round. We had a raft out there, go ice-skating. Nothing like coming out of your basement and walking right out onto the ice to go skating-just beautiful. |
I: | I guess you can answer one of the questions that’s been debated a lot, and that is whether the winters were colder then than they are now. There seems to be some feeling that we’ve got milder winters and the lake isn’t frozen over as much as-was it pretty much frozen over for several months then as a regular basis or- |
CS: | Well, what would happen, you’d get some pretty good ice skating on about Christmas, that area, and so much depended upon snowfall. I can remember going out on the ice, clearing the snow off the ice so the kids could play hockey. And, after the third time, I gave up and the snow would take over and get a crust and they couldn’t skate. But I didn’t-I think the winters are not very different. You’d have cycles where you wouldn’t have ice skating for a couple years. |
I: | Ya. |
CS: | And then you’d have beautiful ice and another time you’d have too much snow and you- |
I: | Well, that’s right. If you get a lot of snow then it just sort of ruins the ice. |
CS: | It builds up and you can’t cope with it. [chuckles] In fact, that house I had on Lake Drive is down in a hole and I got to the point one year, I couldn’t even get the snow off-out of the driveway. I had-there was-I had piles six, seven feet high. |
I: | So did you park your car up in the street there? |
CS: | Well, I would do that going to work. I’d-I would put the car right up at the [unclear] of the driveway so I could get out in the morning. And of course the plows would come through and push snow right up against [unclear]. So I had a little pushing to do but-[unclear] had that problem. I had a funny comment from somebody when I was the mayor-you know, Lake Drive is a road that ties into the railroad station and the schools and the rest of the town. And somebody said Lake Drive was always cleared out first because the mayor lives on Lake Drive. Well, what a silly thing. [chuckles] There was never any such thing as that. There was no favoritism. |
I: | Right. Well, now, you’re here today for a luncheon for former mayors, So maybe you could tell us about that aspect of your life here in Mountain Lakes when you were-would you rather start with the mayors that were-when you were mayor or school board president? Which do you think is- |
CS: | Well, I-first would be the school board. I was on the school board for three years and the second year I was vice president. In the third year I was the president. And in the second year we tried to put something together so that we could have an addition. We recognized the problem that the baby boomers were coming in and that-into the high school. But we really took a beating, like two to one on that addition. |
I: | This was a proposed addition to the high school? |
CS: | To the [unclear] school. |
I: | The Briarcliff- |
CS: | Ya, [unclear] extended out into where the ball field is. |
I: | Right. And this is-at the time Briarcliff was a high school. |
CS: | That’s right. |
I: | Okay. |
CS: | That’s right. That was built in 1936 with WPA funds at the time. And when I look back at it we lost two to one for several reasons. I don’t think we communicated the way we should have. We thought, ‘Well, we’ll do the job. That’s what we elected [unclear].’ We didn’t get enough out to the public; that was one strike against us. Then it was-didn’t want to spend all the money no matter what. We had another group that wanted us to get into a regional system. Well, with all that conflict-in fact, there wasn’t unanimous vote on the board either, though [several words unclear] one or two objected to it. Then the papers would clobber us all the time about the whole thing and not communicating. And the atmosphere just wasn’t right to put anything across. We’re talking about a million, one at the time, which maybe is nothing now but at the time it was a big nut to crack, and people objected to the-people are always against higher taxes. I think I remember, we-[unclear] go back to this later. We got into the next year, we decided to start all over again. We set up-I think I set up 10 different committees that I remember [several words unclear] the curriculum or financing, whatever, the building itself, and a variety of committees. And I set it up so that there would be people who were in opposition to the Briarcliff Commission on the same committees. I think that helped us because the committees file their reports and everybody had to be in on it. There were more than 50 people involved in those committees. And the other thing, I think we came up with a price of a million, six, as I remember, [unclear] one million, one or two for the other one. And I guess they-many people feared if you delay it another year it’ll go even higher. That went through two to one, just the reverse. It’s a good thing we did lose the first time-got it the second. |
I: | Was that an addition to Briarcliff School or- |
CS: | No, no, no. |
I: | This was- |
CS: | The one we were defeated on was- |
I: | Ya. |
CS: | -the proposed addition to- |
I: | Ya. And what was the- |
CS: | -Briarcliff. |
I: | A million, six was- |
CS: | For the [unclear] High School. |
I: | Okay, so in other words, you went from an addition to the new high school, the building. |
CS: | Separate building. |
I: | All right. Okay. |
CS: | [unclear]. |
I: | Ya. |
CS: | Appealed to a lot of people. At least [unclear] had opposition, you know. I know some people wouldn’t spend a nickel more, if they could help it. [chuckles] |
I: | So you were-when you were on the school board and when you were the president, that was at the time the high school building was built then? |
CS: | No, that was when it was approved. |
I: | Approved. |
CS: | The referendum was- |
I: | Okay. |
CS: | -approved. And then I was off the board when the building went along. |
I: | Okay. But it took place- |
CS: | Everything was set in motion. |
I: | Set in motion. Okay. |
CS: | You don’t see that in [several words unclear]. |
I: | Mm-hmm, okay. So, now, at the time was it a [unclear]-it wasn’t everything that’s there now, I don’t think, was there? I mean, I think the auditorium-was that later, or was it-did you also include the auditorium at the time? |
CS: | I think the auditorium was there. There was some-something was added on, I know. I don’t know what it was. |
I: | Okay. |
CS: | So we moved to town when we moved to one [unclear] after that. [unclear] build the Wildwood School and that-there was a lot of opposition to [unclear]. They finally put that [unclear]. |
I: | Now, that was-and that-but that was later. Wildwood School was later? |
CS: | No. No, that [unclear]-that had to be about ’52 or ’53. |
I: | All right. |
CS: | I think ’53. |
I: | Uh-huh. So was Wildwood School built in the same-now, that was built a few years before the high school, right? |
CS: | Yes. |
I: | Okay. |
CS: | Ya, that was-I’m pretty sure it was ’53 and the new high school-I’m losing my voice. |
I: | Do you need some water or something or- |
CS: | It was approved in ’59 but I-let’s see, my son was in the first graduating class. That was 1959 so it opened, I guess, in ’58. And it had been approved in ’56. I remember the kids were moved from Briarcliff School to the new high school on Marlboro Road and they were very unhappy about it. [chuckles] They loved their Briarcliff School. But anyway, we had to make a cut over and they were the-son’s class was the first graduating class. |
I: | But that was a time when there was really a big increase in the number of students, I guess, [unclear]. |
CS: | Well, my son’s graduating class, if I remember correctly, had about 50, 60 kids graduating. My daughter was graduated in 1964 and there were about a hundred. And I don’t remember [unclear] after that; I think it went up higher after that [unclear]. |
I: | Mm-hmm. Anything else you remember about the days on the school board that-did you have a lot of people coming to meetings for the most part or- |
CS: | Well, they were well attended. There must have been a lot of experts in town about school business. I can tell you’re working on it as a mayor and as a councilor it’s a lot easier. I can tell you in that year I was president I worked longer hours than I did on my job. I was either on the phone or a meeting every night, all day Saturday, all day Sunday. [chuckles] After that one year I was ready to resign and I did. I could keep that up just so long. |
I: | Right. Now, you set up the committees at the time you were on-president, you started the committees? |
CS: | I started these committees in connection with the proposals for the high school. They were for that. Well, I think that might be in my notes there. We had a variety of [unclear]. And, as I said before, there were a good mixture of people for and against- |
I: | So it was a good idea. |
CS: | -the expansion. Right. And I think that really got around the real problem we had and we lost on the first referendum. [several words unclear] because people got-found out what the story was and what the problems were. And it showed up in the fact that it changed from a beating of two to one to a winning- |
I: | Right. |
CS: | -two to one. No outsiders got into it-still had an [several words unclear]. |
I: | Didn’t want any taxing things. |
CS: | Oh, ya, all the time. I can remember Joe McCabe was president of the school board and he tried to get the Briarcliff position [unclear]. And he’d have to get [unclear] in the auditorium and talk about the plan and [unclear]. And I can remember one friend of mine who would sit back right in the first row right underneath and she’d knit. And Joe said to me later on, “[unclear].” [laughter] |
I: | Well, why don’t you tell us about your years as mayor now, [unclear]? |
CS: | Well, I started out as a councilor for a couple of years and the main contribution I made, as far as I remember as a councilor, is I put together rules and regulations for everything we did as far as the government was concerned. Like, I had write-ups on the Board of Health. A lot of us expected what we had to do, the planning board, things like that. I don’t remember all. And I remember setting up all those rules so that we could look back on. That’s one of the things I want to ask [unclear] this afternoon whether they still have those rules [unclear]. The thing is I did it mainly to have a guide for future councilors, [unclear] kind of, you know, rulings-things that we had ruled upon, so they had some background before they made decisions. That was-[unclear] then I got into-I won the Athletic Committee and we had a-I’m trying to think of the baseball field. |
I: | The baseball- |
CS: | Ya, we wanted to have a better baseball field for the high school team. And we had family playing down at Nafie Field. I think that’s-[unclear] Nafie Field down below the railroad, that [unclear]. |
I: | That was-okay, that was before- |
CS: | Well, I became mayor. |
I: | But that was before they built some houses down there? Is that right? |
CS: | No, no. I guess I’m mixing that up. That happened a long time ago. The school board-now, let me back up- |
I: | Okay. |
CS: | -on that. When I was on the school board the first year I had the Athletic Committee. That’s where it was. And we felt we needed a better field for the high school. And the Nafie Field that I remember, there was a big boulder out in the center field, kind of dangerous for kids to be playing baseball there. So we went to the council meeting [chuckles] and one of the council members said, “What do you fellows want anyway, a polo grounds?” They weren’t in the least bit sympathetic. So what we did was that Bill Faringer was on the council at the time and he was kind of building [unclear]. And the two of us went out and set up the baseball field along side of Briarcliff School. It wasn’t ideal. They had played down in the-where the football field but there was a short right field. [several words unclear]. So anyway, that’s where they had their games. Now, of course, they have a much better field at the- |
I: | Right. |
CS: | -new high school. |
I: | Now, you helped create that baseball field at Briarcliff then? |
CS: | Right along side it, ya. |
I: | Okay. |
CS: | [several words unclear] as you got out there you take-as you-[several words unclear]. I didn’t think I’d be doing that kind of work but glad to do it, you know. |
I: | Now, was there a lot-were there a lot of trees here? I mean, did you have to cut down trees or- |
CS: | No, there was not. It was hilly [unclear]. I’m hazy on the detail about it. I’m sure there was some but- |
I: | Ya, ya. |
CS: | To get back to the council, I mentioned I put together like rules and regulations and that sort of thing. That was the main thrust at the time. When I was on the council, Wally Taylor was the mayor the first year. The second year, Doug Ellems was the mayor. And about that time the county government wanted to take over our property up at the [unclear]. They wanted to put in a reservoir. And we resisted it. We [several words unclear] of the commissioners-county commissioners came to our meeting and Doug Ellems virtually threw them out of the meeting. [unclear] “We don’t want to listen to you and we don’t want any part of it. We’re not selling,” and all that sort of thing. |
I: | Ya. |
CS: | Actually, our attorney suggested that we sell rather than get into a court case and all that sort of thing. We wouldn’t have any part of it, anything to do with it. And in fact we even went to the extent of rezoning the end of Birchwood Lake into residential property- |
I: | I see. |
CS: | -to get the price up. At one point we thought we were going to lose. And we thought, ‘We’ll get the price up as high as we possibly can,’ so that property was rezoned- |
I: | Mm-hmm, I see. |
CS: | -to residential. Well, when the threat disappeared and they backed off, we-somebody noticed that a later council changed it back to parkland. |
I: | I see. |
CS: | People wonder what we were doing back then. That was the reason for it. I mean, it’s some legal assistance on the side who suggested that, you know, was a good idea-anything to thwart the county commissioners. |
I: | Right. Well, that was a pretty important step then in resisting, you know, takeovers, because that’s been one of the strengths of Mountain Lakes is that we have so much property that’s- |
CS: | I should say, that was a big move. The biggest move, of course, took place when Dick Wilcox was mayor and they took over that land-very important. Something like $70,000 [unclear]. But then we had to fight. In fact, it continued into my term after John Allens was out as mayor. We could see the threat subsiding [unclear]. [sentence unclear]. |
I: | What did you say when Mr. Wilcox was mayor? When you bought-that land was bought then. When was that when he was mayor? Was that just a few years before that or was that for sometime before that? |
CS: | No, he was way back. He was mayor in the early ’50s. |
I: | Right. And you were on the-started your first year on the council was what year? |
CS: | ’65 I think it was. |
I: | All right. |
CS: | John Allens preceded me with a two-year term. Wally Taylor, I think, was mayor for I think two years. And before Wally Taylor was [unclear] and there was another one in there; I can’t remember his name. And then Wilcox; Wilcox was in the ’50s. |
I: | I see. |
CS: | I made the right move on the [unclear]; that’s for sure. And then-well, there’s a YMCA property. I [unclear] be on the board of reviews but, you know-YMCA, that turned out to be a bit of a problem. Dick Wilcox was by that time working with the YMCA [unclear]. And he was dead set on erecting a YMCA [unclear] down on Route 46. The council didn’t want any part of that because it was going to be right in the middle of an area which we thought could be commercial. |
I: | Mm-hmm, right. |
CS: | [unclear] reduce the taxes somewhat. Well, we did; we offered them the land [unclear] they are now at the assessed value. |
I: | Oh, really? |
CS: | Ya, I’ve forgotten the number of acres, and a side note to that, Powerville Road comes down that way. And there’s a lot of turns and we were trying to get Boonton to straighten out their roads. Well, what we did, we got a deed restriction we orchestrated. We just didn’t sell the property to the Y where the curve goes. You’d cut off-you know, the curve is like-comes out like so. We cut it off so that Boonton could go right through and wouldn’t have any complications with the Y. Well, that area right in front of the YMCA on the road side is [several words unclear] Mountain Lakes property. |
I: | I see. |
End of Interview
Transcribed by Tapescribe, University of Connecticut at Storrs, 2003, edited by Margarethe P. Laurenzi, coordinator, Oral History Project of the Historic Preservation Committee of Mountain Lakes, October 2003, with assistance from Jackie Burkett, Borough Archivist.